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Talk:Madara Uchiha
Trimming Down: Abilities To avoid further edit war, I am adding this here with my intentions. Namely, the complete removal of Bukijutsu, kenjutsu and Intelligence from his abilities section. As well as general trimming down of the prose and circlejerking his section is full of. Because quite frankly, his intelligence should go under Personality, and bukijutsu and kenjutsu are literally only worth a sentence because they aren't that important most of his fighting style was focused around Susanoo, with very little use of a sword or gubai.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 23:50, December 22, 2013 (UTC) : I understand what you are saying, but that is also like saying that Shikamaru's intelligence is not a defining attribute to him. Similar, Itachi's signature ability wasn't shurikens, but was still a noticeable skill of his. Steveo920, 18:56 December 22, 2013 : Seriously, I am all for making this page sleeker, I've been reducing all day to help out. Not just the abilities section, but the personality section as well. I just think that if the character shows noticeable skill in it, it should be mention to some extent. Steveo920, 19:-1, December 22, 2013 ::The issue is though intelligence is not Madara's defining feature. Madara's defining ability is his dojutsu. He is smart no denying that, but it is not a defining ability. Same with kenjutsu and bukijustsu, he for the most part uses them. But he isn't defined by them. Its not the same situation of Shikamaru or Tenten, both or are defined by their intelligence and weapon techniques respectively. Both ken and bukijutsu can be mentioned, they should be mentioned, but it is not worth a large section which continues to just read like a circlejerk of how awesome Madara is. ::Like that's the second part of the problem. We don't need to have multiple mentions of how Madara can pwn fodder shinobi with no effort. We don't need to literally repeat some of his great feats multiple times in multiple sections. That was what I was trying to do to trim this down, I removed repeated actions and dropped ones that are quite frankly pointless (Mentioning his can battle an entire army is fine. Mentioning he can battle an entire army multiple times and it becomes a circlejerk.)--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 00:08, December 23, 2013 (UTC) Everything should be mentioned, im agaisnt taking certain thing out Munchvtec (talk) 00:29, December 23, 2013 (UTC)munchvtec :::Good contribution. Now tell us how you really feel or you just like the circlejerk of information Madara's page has devolved into?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 00:31, December 23, 2013 (UTC) : I agree, little things shouldn't be blown out of proportion, that's why I am still gragually trimming it down myself, but to act like they had no involvement at all is like saying they have no ability for it all. Hashirama's life force and chakra is a key aspect to Madara's plan, but it wasn't a defining attribute to Hashirama himself. Whats-more, Madara's weapon and intelligence traits are noticeable as he was known for his gunbai and his intelligence played an important role to the development of the world, having manipulated so much from beyond the grave. Steveo920, 19:30, December 22, 2013 ::To be honest, your trimming down seems more phoned in. And you are still blowing things out to be bigger than they need to be. As I said he has used his gubai and that can be mentioned, but not to such a degree that he needs entire section dedicated to it. We don't need a section on his intelligence because "he manipulated things from the grave". He actually didn't, he had Tobi do his works for him, and had Kabuto not revived Madara, Tobi would have been alone with the Ten-Tails. We can mention he is smart fine, but he does not need an entire section based on his intelligence at least not in his Abilities section. So yes, even "important role to the development of the world" is overhyping him. The problem is that much of what is in the article is overhype. Things need to actually be removed to solve this problem not trying to dance around the issue.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 00:45, December 23, 2013 (UTC) :: Okay, I'll admit that by statement about his intelligence wasn't thought out, I guess I was getting a little emotional since I seriously put so much work into my edits, but the way you are saying it, characters like Kakashi don't need an intellgence section. It isn't his most defining but it place a huge role on how he operates. Steveo920, 19:53, December 22, 2013 ::: I'm of the same mind as Ultimate, honestly, and for every page. Not just Madara. I don't know when it became acceptable that every single sneeze a character makes is mentioned in the ability section, but its needless, and takes up space that could be used by actual useful information. The abilities section should give a summary—key word here—of Madara's defining capabilities. His dōjutsu, to name the most significant. Trimming bukijutsu and intelligence, or even outright removing them, would be fine. Madara hasn't even used his fan since he first arrived back on the battlefield, and, I'm sorry, while he's skilled with other weapons, they clearly aren't his main mode of attack. Not to mention, the abilities section was mostly buffed up by a select few who seem to worship Madara's ever action, adding in needless "junk info" along with a ton of unneeded references. These articles aren't meant to recount every single action in the series done by these characters, verbatim. It is to give a summary. If people want to know that Madara Uchiha was capable of using a fan to blow away Naruto, then they can visit the Jutsu page, or read the manga, but it certainly doesn't need an entire section dedicated to it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 00:56, December 23, 2013 (UTC) :: If you want to reduce the sections, I will have no problem with that. I just think that if they show more than average skill in the said area, it should be noted. It's kind of like how on various pages a character's limits are noted, like Itahci not being able to defeat Jiraiya. Its not defining, but it paints a clearer picture on what the character can do. 2Steveo920, 20:09, December 22, 2012 :::Except this isn't about his limit, its nothing but circlejerking around how he is close to being a god. We could mention him being legendary and strong but instead the article throws extreme focus on him wrecking or hyping up little things he does. Honestly skills outside of dojutsu and nature transformations can be summed up as "Highly skilled in taijutsu and various weapons, particularly his gumbai". That is literally all that needs to be said about kenjutsu bukijutsu and taijutsu yet the article has 3 different sections about them.-[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 01:40, December 23, 2013 (UTC) :: Okay, I'll admit I don't even know what "circlejerking" is exactly, but I'm not trying to overhype anything> I just want to give readers a better idea than just thinking a character is good at something when there is more information. To go overboard about how he is close to being a god from intelligence or weapon skills would be like saying he is borderline clairvoyant or he no army in the world could stand against him respectively. Steveo920, 20:48, December 22, 2012 In my opinion, I find trimming down Madara's article to be pointless. 100,000 some bytes is hardly that bad, and furthermore, given that the manga is scheduled to end in 2014 (so probably in a little more than two months or three), it's not like there's that much more information that will be given on Madara. Furthermore, Bukijutsu and whatnot are crucial to a character. The purpose of a Wikia site for information is to give readers a thorough guideline about characters and other associated things, so to shorten it to only bare essentials and cutting out what we consider "unimportant" is silly. As a canon site, we should present exactly what Kishi gives us through the chapters, not shortening it and summarizing it to how we personally fancy it. I dunno, just my two cents. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 05:07, December 23, 2013 (UTC) :Except the wikia was never supposed to be an alternative to actually reading the manga/watching the anime. Sections like abilities are supposed to be summuries, not word for word dick jerking of a particular character where every single thing they do is consider the Kings Gold and hyped as if it is an intergral part of the character.-[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 10:33, December 23, 2013 (UTC) :Various characters have various abilities that aren't the most prominent, but still give an overall idea what they can do. Kakashi specializes in ninjutsu supplemented by his Sharingan, yet he is still a highly skilled taijutsu user, one of few able to use any of the Eight Gates, which he rarely uses but is still noteworthy. Steveo920. 10:51, Dec 23, 2013 :: Okay, but you're equating "noteworthy" as an excuse to write an entire novel and dedicate a unique section to the skill. Even your example can be summed up as, "Kakashi is a talented user of taijutsu, being one of the few shinobi capable of opening the Eight Gates". Bingo. Done. Not five paragraphs on everytime he successfully landed a punch on a villain. Ultimate is absolutely right. This wiki is not an alternative for the manga. If you want to know every single skill a character has, that is what the story is for. Summaries are what we are supposed to give: nothing further. That is what a Wikia—an encyclopedia—is meant for. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:37, December 23, 2013 (UTC) ::: No, my point about Kakashi isn't that he can use the eight gates, its that his abilities in the taijutsu are more than just basic. Again, I am not trying to glorify it or right an entire "novel" as you put it, I am just saying that needs more detail. Steveo920, 14:50, December 23, 2013 :::: No, it really doesn't need more detail. Detail is for the manga to work out. We work out summaries. Plain and simple. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:01, December 23, 2013 (UTC) :::::I'm in full agreement of trimming down this article (and some others, but that's for another time). Madara Uchiha is one of the series' most popular characters among the fans, so it is easy to subconsciously blow his feats out of proportion. Emphasis should be on his dojutsu prowess, but everything should be concise and summarized. I can help out with the personality section as well though, since I've done minor work in said areas in the past. --Kakashi Namikaze - talk 14:20, December 25, 2013 (UTC) Elderly pic for infobox? Currently it's the most recent pic of Madara when he was alive that's animated. The current photo doesn't show his revived self at all so what do you guys think? --Mandon (talk) 17:46, January 9, 2014 (UTC) :...But he's regained his youth...that was from a flashback. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 17:49, January 9, 2014 (UTC) There's currently no image of him post rinne-tensei in the anime though. The one we're currently using doesn't even resemble his current appearance, it's just a pic of him in his edo-tensei form. --Mandon (talk) 17:52, January 9, 2014 (UTC) :Look, what is posted in the infobox is what the character currently looks like the anime. Once Hashirama vs. Madara is animated, a pic of living Madara will likely be uploaded. Until then, this will suffice.--OmegaRasengan (talk) 17:57, January 9, 2014 (UTC) Well I don't know much about the image guidelines EDIT: By that I mean the factors in choosing an infobox image. not the actual guidelines, but I'm just saying the current image isn't a photo of him while he's alive. And he doesn't look exactly like that in the current chapters. We thought his post-RT appearance would resemble his edo tensei body and that's why the image was decided upon, but clearly that wasn't the case. --Mandon (talk) 18:03, January 9, 2014 (UTC) :There is absolutely no way the picture of Elderly Madara is gonna be used. The picture we have is the closet to an image we've known him throughout the entire manga, not just 2 chapters. So I repeat, there is absolutely no way that picture is gonna be used.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 22:46, January 9, 2014 (UTC) You don't have the authority to make that decision, Ultimate. I brought up this discussion so that everyone can decide which photo would be best. So far you and Omega have spoken out against it, and I've voiced why I'm for it, so let's see what everyone else thinks. My point still stands, the current photo isn't a living photo of him. The sole reason it was even considered was because we thought that's how he would look after being revived, since his eyes didn't burn out until the next chapter, so whether or not we use his elderly appearance, I don't think the current image is appropriate for the infobox. Those are just my thoughts. --Mandon (talk) 00:33, January 10, 2014 (UTC) :First, it's The'Ultimate'3 and I accept TU3 for short. Second, ain't no way photo of old elderly Madara is gonna be used, especially when that is by far his least notable appearance in the manga/anime/whatever.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 02:16, January 10, 2014 (UTC) ::Third a picture of him alive is preferred, but not when it is completely contradictory to what we have seen him in most of the series. We've seen old man Madara in two chapters. We've seen young, ready to fight Madara for a quarter of the manga. It's not rocket science on which one will be used. And beacuse you made this topic I will give you a hint; it will not be Elderly Madara.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 02:17, January 10, 2014 (UTC) Does it matter what I call you? You know I'm talking to you so it matters not. Back on topic.. Old Man Madara is the most recent living picture of him. We used a photo of adult Nagato after the pain arc even though we technically saw a lot more of him as a child, so I don't exactly buy that argument. In any case I really don't care which photo we use, as long as it isn't a photo where he's reanimated. I'm going strictly by the reason we used it originally, which was that we thought that's how he would look after his true revival. It wasn't, so we should change it back to the old picture from Onoki's flashback or use a photo of him as an old man as a placeholder since it's more recent. I've raised my points and you've raised yours, and unless someone else comments there's no chance of it being changed anyways so let's see where this goes. --Mandon (talk) 02:59, January 10, 2014 (UTC) :Yes what I'm called is very important. I don't call you MadaraFan01 do it? :But seriously the picture of him doesn't even look like he was Reincarnated, the only way you'll know is if you read the manga. And we don't work for just them. We work for the fandom as a whole, and as a whole, adult Madara with red armor is his most iconic appearance. Old Man Madara is not. There is absolutely no reason to use an image of him at his most obscure, other than my personal president that we use images of them alive.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 03:07, January 10, 2014 (UTC) ::Is there an actual precedent against edo tensei images? If the anime offers no good living options and, in fact, Madara has spent a majority of his screentime as an edo tensei, what's wrong with using it? When the anime reaches Hashirama's flashbacks then, sure, replace it with a living photo. But in the meantime...? ''~SnapperT '' 03:30, January 10, 2014 (UTC) :::No there isn't. Or at least there shouldn't be. I have just been very vocal in the past about, if available, having a picture of a character alive instead of the cracks and black eyes of Reincarnation. But Madara here shows no visible signs of Reincarnation so even by my old standards, he passes.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 03:32, January 10, 2014 (UTC) ::::Sort of a convenient misrepresentation, no? Yet it still isn't a particularly good image. Are you going to insist on an inferior picture merely because of some not-actual guideline? I would point out that Mū is in the same boat, where there are living options, but they aren't used because they are a) bad, and b) he's known better dead anyway. ::::There's also Gari and Pakura, but they've probably got some complicated manga > anime reasoning I wouldn't follow... ''~SnapperT '' 03:48, January 10, 2014 (UTC) :::::Not sure if you are still speaking to me or Mandon... If it's at me, I just don't want Elder Madara and see no reason to use it.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 03:57, January 10, 2014 (UTC) There's a difference. I'm not calling you something obscure that has no relevance to your name. if I call you ultimate you at least know I'm talking to you. It's not a big deal. Anyways, there are plenty of images to use Snapper. In fact, we've used them before we switched to the corrent photo. The greyscaled image of him with his gunbai for example, or the one from Onoki's flashback. And if we're allowed to use Edo Tensei photos, there are plenty of images better than the one we're currently using. --Mandon (talk) 05:33, January 10, 2014 (UTC) :I was speaking to TheUltimateMuscle, just in case anyone wanted to know. :My point was that there are currently no good images of living Madara from the anime. He's either too old, too grayscaled, or wearing too much atypical clothing. In the absence of a good living image, I see no reason to not use a good dead image, at least until such time that there is a good living image. ''~SnapperT '' 08:08, January 10, 2014 (UTC) Well if we all come to an agreement that ET images with noticable ET traits like cracks and black sclera are okay, then we can easily snuff out a better image than the one we're currently using. --Mandon (talk) 09:15, January 10, 2014 (UTC) :Not sure if it's still relevant, but to answer your question about why Gari and Pakura images, pictures of them Reincarnated was chosen because the only not-Reincarnated pictures that exist for them is Anime-Only, and everyone should be well aware by now how much that is a buzz-word around here.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 12:31, January 10, 2014 (UTC) Why can't we make a compromise??? Do people have to be so stubborn and egocentric? Can someone explain why can't we use both manga and anime images? In my opinion that would be the best, with manga image of his current revived status and anime image of his last recent living appearance, which would be (fortunately not to Ulti's delight) the grandpa one--Elveonora (talk) 13:43, January 10, 2014 (UTC) :The issue is convoluted and stupid (and yes I am talking about myself too). Some don't want anime images at all if a manga one exists, some what uniform consistency, some has followed through with the manga and anime depictions but then the problem comes how do you incorporate that with every character, then the whole Part I and Part II thing passed. Then you add this one where really come on, Grandpa Madara is in no way iconic enough for an image, but based on the very unofficial rule I myself championed would/could be used and here is the discussion. :It's really a big mess.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 20:30, January 10, 2014 (UTC) Is there any reason why we can't just use tabs for Madara like the infobox for Obito? Also, Elve has a point, I think manga images could and should be appropriate under special circumstances. If you could take a minute to go to the One Piece Wikia and look at the infoboxes for each character, you'll see that they use both manga and anime images in separate tabs on both the pre-timeskip and post-timeskip sections in said box. So like, say a character that appeared in the first half appears in the second half, then a manga image is used until an anime photo comes along, and even then both images are still there to view. Obviously both our wiki and theirs have completely different code so I'm not sure how that would work, but it's something to consider. --Mandon (talk) 00:28, January 11, 2014 (UTC) :There is no reason to not use tabs for Madara, but on the same token there is barely a reason we do use tabs on Tobi. In terms of sticking four images in the infobox, I don't know if our infoboxes are even designed to do that. It's possible, but we had to wait like half a year to get a functional two tab thing working and I don't know if it works beyond that.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 00:38, January 11, 2014 (UTC) We could just do an "Alive" and "Reincarnated" thing for the infobox. We don't need 4 tabs for that. EDIT -- But then there's the question of whether or not there's a real point in using multiple tabs. If edo tensei images are acceptable, and he already appears with his iconic look, then I don't really see a reason to care.. to be perfectly honest. Preferably an image that shows him at a better angle would be more ideal but that's just me. --Mandon (talk) 01:25, January 11, 2014 (UTC) Did Anyone Notice? Did anyone notice two of the following things: *Madara was able to go into sage mode after absorbing Hashirama's chakra, but Hashirama himself wasn't in sage mode *Madara bit his arm, causing it to bleed, to manipulate the rods in Hashi's back upon his resurrection.-- KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 04:03, January 14, 2014 (UTC) :Really? I haven't had an idea why did he bite his arm all along.--Elveonora (talk) 12:51, January 14, 2014 (UTC)